[library-incubator] Ease commenting (Was: [safe_numerics] questioning the basic idea)

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[library-incubator] Ease commenting (Was: [safe_numerics] questioning the basic idea)

Felix Uhl
Robert Ramey wrote:

> This means that Andrzej should post a comment and the rest of you should
> reply to this comment.

> I realize that is is sort of pain, but, again, I would be very helpful to me
> to test the idea of building and maintaining a libraries comment history in
> an permanent convenient place.




Have you thought about using the boost developers and users mailing list to

get comments posted on bli?

You could just run a script on a webserver that polls emails in the mailinglist

and filters out those with a tag that contains the name of a library on the incubator in the title,

which it then posts under said library as an anonymous comment, or a comment

under the name of the poster, if he gives his ok in the mail (not the title)

with a tag like [PostMyName] or [Name=”Pseudonym”].

The idea is to make commenting easier and less awkward by embedding it in the

commenting and discussion framework boost developers and users already use,

the mailing list.


---

Felix Uhl

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Re: [library-incubator] Ease commenting (Was: [safe_numerics] questioning the basic idea)

Robert Ramey
Felix Uhl wrote
Robert Ramey wrote:

> This means that Andrzej should post a comment and the rest of you should
> reply to this comment.

> I realize that is is sort of pain, but, again, I would be very helpful to me
> to test the idea of building and maintaining a libraries comment history in
> an permanent convenient place.

Have you thought about using the boost developers and users mailing list to
get comments posted on bli?
You could just run a script on a webserver that polls emails in the mailinglist
and filters out those with a tag that contains the name of a library on the incubator in the title,
which it then posts under said library as an anonymous comment, or a comment
under the name of the poster, if he gives his ok in the mail (not the title)
with a tag like [PostMyName] or [Name=”Pseudonym”].
The idea is to make commenting easier and less awkward by embedding it in the
commenting and discussion framework boost developers and users already use,
the mailing list.
I've considered it - though not in as much detail as you have.  And I understand
the motivation but this would require a lot of work. Making it work smoothly
with the current native comment system would be a lot of work and probably
maintenance.  So that wouldn't be in the cards for some time - if ever.

The current comment system is (I believe) well suited to those C++ programmers
which do not use the boost dev list.

actually, another option would be a button which says "show comments on this
library from the boost developer's list".  A hack, but more doable.

again, I'm hoping that the incubator evolves into the go to place for commenting
on prospective libraries.  This would save the comments in a good place and
"de-clutter" the boost developer's list a little bit.

Robert Ramey
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Re: [library-incubator] Ease commenting (Was: [safe_numerics] questioning the basic idea)

John Maddock-3
> I've considered it - though not in as much detail as you have.  And I
> understand
> the motivation but this would require a lot of work. Making it work smoothly
> with the current native comment system would be a lot of work and probably
> maintenance.  So that wouldn't be in the cards for some time - if ever.
>
> The current comment system is (I believe) well suited to those C++
> programmers
> which do not use the boost dev list.

True, but it doesn't immediately raise a discussion - a message posted
here gets seen by quite a few people, hopefully some of whom will be
motivated to respond.

One thing I like about comments posted on Gibhub is that they're
generated as emails direct to the repro owner, who can then respond via
email rather than by the web interface.  But I realise that may be hard
to achieve for the incubator - in an ideal world all comments would be
reflected here, and replies here would be copied to the incubator.  Then
you keep everyone happy!

John.

> actually, another option would be a button which says "show comments on this
> library from the boost developer's list".  A hack, but more doable.
>
> again, I'm hoping that the incubator evolves into the go to place for
> commenting
> on prospective libraries.  This would save the comments in a good place and
> "de-clutter" the boost developer's list a little bit.
>
> Robert Ramey
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://boost.2283326.n4.nabble.com/library-incubator-Ease-commenting-Was-safe-numerics-questioning-the-basic-idea-tp4669206p4669223.html
> Sent from the Boost - Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Unsubscribe & other changes: http://lists.boost.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/boost
>

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[library-incubator vs Developer's list] was Ease commenting (Was: [safe_numerics] questioning the basic idea)

Robert Ramey
John Maddock-3 wrote
> The current comment system is (I believe) well suited to those C++
> programmers which do not use the boost dev list.

True, but it doesn't immediately raise a discussion - a message posted
here gets seen by quite a few people, hopefully some of whom will be
motivated to respond.
Damn - I just can't win here!
One thing I like about comments posted on Gibhub is that they're
generated as emails direct to the repro owner,
The incubator implements this. Even more, users can select which
libraries they want to follow automatically.
who can then respond via email rather than by the web interface.  But I realise that may be hard
to achieve for the incubator - in an ideal world all comments would be
reflected here, and replies here would be copied to the incubator.  Then
you keep everyone happy!
Ahhh - keeping everyone happy - the holy grail.

Actually this whole issue of managing these types of discussions is a lot more complex than
meets the eye.  I love seeing the whole indented list as on Nabble.  I used to use
Google Groups but for some reason it wouldn't let me make a public post.  Nabble
has worked well for me - but I'm not crazy about posting.

Then there is a whole other aspect.

a) Boost (I believe) was conceived as a way to support C++ with expanded libraries
which would eventually enter the standard.
b) It has largely fulfilled that purpose.  Making the standard a lot bigger will make
it every more difficult for vendors to supply a conforming implementation.  So I don't
think the standard library can grow a lot more.
c) But C++ still needs a lot of help.  It needs a lot more libraries most of which are
too special purpose to be suitable for inclusion in the standard.  And the number of
these libraries is large - on the order of 500.  This has to be the goal of Boost 2.0
d) This list can't do this job
  1) 500 libraries would drown this list.
  2) the discussions on the list are extremely useful and should be preserved in an easily accessible way.
  3) There needs a way to pay for this development - boost has no way to do this.
  4) This needs a lot more library writers.
       i) But most programmers don't know how to prepare a boost quality library: code, tests, documentation, etc.
       ii) Most library writer need some hope of compensation to justify the time spent.
       iii) All libraries need testers, critique, feedback, etc.  Boost can only do that for libraries in review - and we can't review the candidates we already have.  And we don't have a mechanism other than this list for dealing with this outside of the review.  In a nutshell, the developer's list can't scale the way I think it has to.


The Boost Library Incubator (www.blincubator.com) is prototype of a system designed to address all of the above points.

Without making any commitment to any major changes, please post your comment in the incubator.  I'll then have at least one good thread to use as an example, test, for the commenting mechanism.  I'm only asking that we try this out for this one library - safe numerics.  Turns out that this is a great example. It's simple enough to understand by everyone without spending a lot of of time. And it raises non-trivial issues worthy of discussion.  It may even provoke submission of a competing solution.  This could bode well for the future of Boost as I see it.

Robert Ramey
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Re: [library-incubator vs Developer's list] was Ease commenting (Was: [safe_numerics] questioning the basic idea)

John Maddock-3
>>> The current comment system is (I believe) well suited to those C++
>>> programmers which do not use the boost dev list.
>>
>> True, but it doesn't immediately raise a discussion - a message posted
>> here gets seen by quite a few people, hopefully some of whom will be
>> motivated to respond.
>
> Damn - I just can't win here!

Well that goes without saying ;)

> Without making any commitment to any major changes, please post your comment
> in the incubator.  I'll then have at least one good thread to use as an
> example, test, for the commenting mechanism.  I'm only asking that we try
> this out for this one library - safe numerics.  Turns out that this is a
> great example. It's simple enough to understand by everyone without spending
> a lot of of time. And it raises non-trivial issues worthy of discussion.  It
> may even provoke submission of a competing solution.  This could bode well
> for the future of Boost as I see it.

I've just replied to the comments on safe-numerics, I note:

* As already said, I found the lack of a preview an issue.
* Without a preview, there was no easy way to quote the previous
message, nor did clicking reply automatically give me quoted text to
edit down.
* After a submit, I felt a little lost, and had to go searching for the
reply I'd posted (scroll down quite a way, and re-expand the comments
section).

HTH, John.

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Re: [library-incubator vs Developer's list] was Ease commenting (Was: [safe_numerics] questioning the basic idea)

Felix Uhl
In reply to this post by Felix Uhl
Robert Ramey wrote:

>> True, but it doesn't immediately raise a discussion - a message posted
>> here gets seen by quite a few people, hopefully some of whom will be
>> motivated to respond.

> Damn - I just can't win here!


As I said in a previous post, this is the problem of the incubator, a lack

of community. I know that it would be a lot of work, but your best bet

is to build on the large mailing list community that already exists.


> a) Boost (I believe) was conceived as a way to support C++ with expanded
> libraries
> which would eventually enter the standard.
> b) It has largely fulfilled that purpose.  Making the standard a lot bigger
> will make
> it every more difficult for vendors to supply a conforming implementation.
> So I don't
> think the standard library can grow a lot more.


Thoughts like that seem to be preliminary to me. We shouldn’t stop thinking

about new facilities.

But I agree that boost is not the “Soon on std” it was a long time ago, and I think

this is the general consensus now.


> c) But C++ still needs a lot of help.  It needs a lot more libraries most of
> which are
> too special purpose to be suitable for inclusion in the standard.  And the
> number of
> these libraries is large - on the order of 500.  This has to be the goal of
> Boost 2.0


This is a huge point of discussion, but probably not suited for this thread.

The future of boost is a controversial topic, though.


> d) This list can't do this job
>  1) 500 libraries would drown this list.



I agree that this mailing list is not suited for a larger number of libraries,

it is already pretty crowded.  I personally like the layout of forums,

the ability to subscribe to threads and have subforums for different topics.

We already have sublists for larger and more widely used libraries, so

that’s something.

However, I don’t think the incubator would handle that number of libraries well,

either. Something prepared for that scale will probably be hard to implement

in wordpress. For a plan this huge, you need to form a team of highly skilled

professionals that can envision, plan and execute such a project.


>  2) the discussions on the list are extremely useful and should be
> preserved in an easily accessible way.


Again, forums do that quite nicely.


>  3) There needs a way to pay for this development - boost has no way to do
>  this.


I’m not here since a long time, but from what I could tell, boost is

not based on voluntary work entirely, is it?

Still, you’re probably right in the way that boost encourages high quality

libraries which are above the standard of many company-internal code,

and that the countless hours of work for a library that is well documented,

written and tested should be compensated for.

For me, just the knowledge that other programmers, probably even companies,

will use my code, is quite satisfying, but I’m only writing a small header-only library,

something you could still consider a hobby.


>  4) This needs a lot more library writers.
>       i) But most programmers don't know how to prepare a boost quality
> library: code, tests, documentation, etc.


I don’t think boost has to nor needs to train new programmers. There are good

programmers out there, and some of them may have written code for their work

that could become a good boost lib, if they had time to flesh it out.


>       ii) Most library writer need some hope of compensation to justify the
> time spent.


Yes. Especially considering that boost has high standards for code quality,

you can’t just submit an interesting prototype and call it a boost library.


>       iii) All libraries need testers, critique, feedback, etc.  Boost can
> only do that for libraries in review - and we can't review the candidates we
> already have.  And we don't have a mechanism other than this list for
> dealing with this outside of the review.  In a nutshell, the developer's
> list can't scale the way I think it has to.


As noted previously, I agree with you there.


---

Felix Uhl


PS: Robert, you really like writing lists of stuff, don’t you? ;-)

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Re: [library-incubator vs Developer's list] was Ease commenting (Was: [safe_numerics] questioning the basic idea)

Robert Ramey
Felix Uhl wrote
PS: Robert, you really like writing lists of stuff, don’t you? ;-)
very, very true. Probably more accurate to say that I have a lot
to say and making lists helps me deal with it.

Robert Ramey
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Re: [library-incubator vs Developer's list] was Ease commenting (Was: [safe_numerics] questioning the basic idea)

Andrzej Krzemienski
In reply to this post by John Maddock-3
2014-11-19 18:27 GMT+01:00 John Maddock <[hidden email]>:

> The current comment system is (I believe) well suited to those C++
>>>> programmers which do not use the boost dev list.
>>>>
>>>
>>> True, but it doesn't immediately raise a discussion - a message posted
>>> here gets seen by quite a few people, hopefully some of whom will be
>>> motivated to respond.
>>>
>>
>> Damn - I just can't win here!
>>
>
> Well that goes without saying ;)
>
>  Without making any commitment to any major changes, please post your
>> comment
>> in the incubator.  I'll then have at least one good thread to use as an
>> example, test, for the commenting mechanism.  I'm only asking that we try
>> this out for this one library - safe numerics.  Turns out that this is a
>> great example. It's simple enough to understand by everyone without
>> spending
>> a lot of of time. And it raises non-trivial issues worthy of discussion.
>> It
>> may even provoke submission of a competing solution.  This could bode well
>> for the future of Boost as I see it.
>>
>
> I've just replied to the comments on safe-numerics, I note:
>
> * As already said, I found the lack of a preview an issue.
>

Now, I can see button "Preview", but when I hit it, nothing happens.

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Re: [library-incubator vs Developer's list] was Ease commenting (Was: [safe_numerics] questioning the basic idea)

Robert Ramey
Andrzej Krzemienski wrote
Now, I can see button "Preview", but when I hit it, nothing happens.
Hmmm - works for me.  Note that nothing happens unless there is actually text in the box being edited.  Try again and let me know if there's still a problem.

Robert Ramey
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Re: [library-incubator vs Developer's list] was Ease commenting (Was: [safe_numerics] questioning the basic idea)

Andrzej Krzemienski
2014-11-20 16:43 GMT+01:00 Robert Ramey <[hidden email]>:

> Andrzej Krzemienski wrote
> > Now, I can see button "Preview", but when I hit it, nothing happens.
>
> Hmmm - works for me.  Note that nothing happens unless there is actually
> text in the box being edited.


:)


> Try again and let me know if there's still a
> problem.
>

I tried it in two browsers. And it doesn't show me a preview. Sometimes I
see message "Preview error" below the button. But after pushing Preview
again, sometimes even this disappears.

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Re: [library-incubator vs Developer's list] was Ease commenting (Was: [safe_numerics] questioning the basic idea)

Robert Ramey
maybe you could try one more time.  I tweaked the css so it's easier to see and I checked it on the two browsers that I have available - Safari and Foxfire.  Seems to work as advertised.
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Re: [library-incubator vs Developer's list] was Ease commenting (Was: [safe_numerics] questioning the basic idea)

Andrzej Krzemienski
2014-11-22 1:48 GMT+01:00 Robert Ramey <[hidden email]>:

> maybe you could try one more time.  I tweaked the css so it's easier to see
> and I checked it on the two browsers that I have available - Safari and
> Foxfire.  Seems to work as advertised.
>

It is still the same: nothing on Firefox and "Preview error" on Internet
Explorer. I will try it on other machine later. Perhaps it is something
else on the computer.

Anyone else, but me and Robert, can you see the preview?

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Re: [library-incubator vs Developer's list] was Ease commenting (Was: [safe_numerics] questioning the basic idea)

Rob Stewart-6
On November 24, 2014 3:47:02 AM EST, Andrzej Krzemienski <[hidden email]> wrote:

>2014-11-22 1:48 GMT+01:00 Robert Ramey <[hidden email]>:
>
>> maybe you could try one more time.  I tweaked the css so it's easier
>to see
>> and I checked it on the two browsers that I have available - Safari
>and
>> Foxfire.  Seems to work as advertised.
>>
>
>It is still the same: nothing on Firefox and "Preview error" on
>Internet
>Explorer. I will try it on other machine later. Perhaps it is something
>else on the computer.
>
>Anyone else, but me and Robert, can you see the preview?

I recently commented on the About page that I didn't see any preview content.


___
Rob

(Sent from my portable computation engine)

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